Girls in pants

Whew. Insane week. I'd tell you all about it, because I apparently have no filter when it comes to revealing the secrets of my life. But I'm trying to respect the privacy of others, so I'll just the battle was waged on three fronts, involving emergency rooms, space heaters, and loaned shop vacs. And all around, very little sleep. Fun.

So, naughty, naughty Shannon. You don't make declarative statements like "Girls in pants with swords are bad" without explaining a little. So i 'splain.

First, I certainly don't mean to say that be-sworded girls eschewing skirts is wrong. My most favorite book growing up was The Blue Sword, for pity's sake! Harry and Aerin with the blue sword, Buffy with an ax, Zoe with a couple of space pistols, Eowyn with a broadsword, Wonder Woman with her battle sword, Annie Oakley with her gun, brown paper packages tied up with strings, these are a few of my favorite things.

Here's what I meant to say--for long, long time, action and adventure heroes were men. Female characters weren't allowed in the action. Then in movies, novels, and comic books, (mostly male) writers started to insert women into those roles, but they didn't seem to know how to write them. It seemed like they wrote parts for men then just had women play them. In order to make them "tough," they had them acting as masculine as possible. Or they wrote obnoxious women who were overeager to prove that they were tough too, foreswearing all things feminine and eager to slaughter everything within sight. A tomboy who grew up toughened by her brothers and capable with a gun or sword was considered cooler than a girl who might actually enjoy typically feminine past times. A few of those types of characters would be interesting and completely valid, but they seemed to be the only kinds of action and adventure heroines. I don't think this is largely the case anymore, but it used to bother me. I've done years and years of intensive research about this (read: none) and wrote about it for my PhD dissertation (read: I have an MFA in Creative Writing), so I feel confident in asserting (read: taking a stab in the dark) that Joss Whedon was the first to turn this lame incarnation of the female hero on its head and made it impossible for anyone to present a faux-woman like that again in any seriousness. Her name was Buffy, people. And she slayed vampires. She was a cheerleader, she liked lip gloss, she was almost extreme in her girliness. And she kicked serious butt. But she was wasn't just a joke--she was multi-dimensional, as were all the characters around her. Joss is a genius.

When I was writing goose girl, I reached a point where I had to make a call--what kind of story do I want to tell here? Should I go high adventure and have Ani learn to use a sword or spear from some kindly palace weapons master? That might've been a cool story. But as I thought about it, I knew I wanted to stay true to the core of the fairy tale, which wasn't about a girl who learns to kick butt in a man's world. It was about a half-girl who becomes a whole girl. And I decided that I didn't want to put a phallic weapon into my heroine's hands in order to make her powerful. I wanted to see how powerful my girls could be without using guns or swords. I love a lot of those girls-on-horses-wielding-swords stories a whole, whole lot. And I am absolutely not criticizing them. But for my own stories, I decided to go another way. For now. We'll see where I am in a decade. By the time my kids are teenagers, I might have a need to work a quality battle ax into book and send a girl out to chop off some orc heads.

Comments

[Jean]

My opinion is that your writing has taken the higher road. The main characters use their wits and natural talents-not relying upon weaponry or gimmickry. It's harder (again, in my opinion) to write that way then to have a character go charging into the fray with an enchanted (fill in the blank-sword, ax, wand, book, etc....)
On a side note, my husband finally read Book of a Thousand Days and really liked it.

[Olivia]

I was actually reading the Goose Girl yesterday, Miss Shannon, just delighting in your spectacularly gorgeous writing, when the thought came to me that Ani is quite a lovelily strong character. At the very beginning, she starts out quite frightened, timid with almost everyone around her. But as her story progresses and she has a chance to live happily, she reawakens in a way. She shows how courageous she can be, how strong her character really is. She comes to herself, and she loves it. And she accomplishes it all without once using a sword. Not that she couldn't use one, but that she can be completely and totally strong without one. Ani truly is a beautiful character! Thank you ever so much, Miss Shannon, for telling her tale!

[Dr. Sallie N. Cheinsteen]

I have read both kinds of books. I think that if the style is used properly, both can be fantastic. They're just different styles. I think that maybe those action books with swords, spears, etc. are exciting to read and create a lot of suspense. However, the other genre (like Shannon's), I think can be connected to teenagers more. When a friend betrays someone in a book, the reader connects that situation to themselves. I mean, how many of us haven't been betrayed by someone (this is only one example)? But the main character grows, and so does the reader. These books have suspense too, it's just mixed with more real life situations, making it enchanting to read. It's just your preference.

[Dr. Sallie N. Cheinsteen]

Sorry, I know I just posted, but Shannon (or anyone), can I ask you a question? I have never read Twilight, partly because everyone is, and it's about a vampire (unfair bias I know). So, what I'm asking is, should I read it? Is it worth my time, or is it some book written to charm teenagers, and only talks about love and romance?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Wait. Harry was a CHICK?

Man. The ending of "The Blue Sword" makes *so* much more sense now.

[Chelsea]

i love your female characters. They're strong and real and they get scared and feel pain and wear skirts. I was reading the goose girl and enna burning just a few days ago. SO GOOD! I think I forgot how good they were. Who needs a sword?

And about twilight, I liked twilight and new moon but not eclipse. I was so disappointed, i was expecting a good clean book that i could read without worrying. But Eclipse was innapropriate. And i got sick of bella falling all over the place. And edward got annoying after a while. The only thing that kept me reading was Jake.

HAHA, marcus.

[Jessica]

Love me some Joss Whedon, baby! Even Zoe, the space gun toting warrior chick, enjoyed her femininity. All of his female characters are strong in their own way, without being masculine. And I really think Robin McKinley does not get enough attention these days. In "The Blue Sword" she created a society where both men and women were completely equal. Girls could join the army without anyone thinking twice about it, and yet they were still treated with respect off the battlefield. And Aerin's dragonslaying wasn't an issue because she was a woman, it was considered beneath her as a noble. Amazing stuff. And of course, I love it that everyone's favorite Goose Girl gets the job done her own way! (And looks pretty darn good doing it, speaking of lip gloss and hair concerns. Well, perhaps not lip gloss. . . .)

[Miss Erin]

I agree, all around, with everything you said exactly the way you said it. :)

[Mrs. Mordecai]

Thank you for letting Ani be a girl. I wouldn't have liked The Goose Girl half so much if she had had to compromise her femininity.

[dragonfly]

That's one thing I've always loved about Buffy: she's the super-warrior who can fight with any weapon (or with none)...but she's totally a girl. That's what I call girl power. :)

[Heather]

Hahaha! Marcus, you are AWESOME. I'm still laughing. Literally, I have tears in my eyes. Harimad Marcus, Harimad

It's so funny because I agree with everything. I have loved (and still love) books like The Blue Sword and The Sea of Trolls (Thorgil rocks) but I love the depth and complexity required to create a female character who is strong, but not in the obviuos overt ways. That is why I love Princess Academy with such a passion, and all SH's amazing books. You are allowed to see vulnerability and tenderness alongside their strength, and that makes for a far more complex character.

It is so funny, my character I am writing has so much of both worlds, I honestly don't know where to peg her. Raised in a very militaristic nation, but transplanted to a different kingdom, she certainly knows how to defend herself, yet she loves to wear a very elegant white dress and her favorite place is a garden, where she feels safest. She is very vulnerable and only puts on a cold exterior to protect herself. Where on the spectrum would you place her Shannon?

[Heather]

Oh, and that is awesome that you did your thesis on this. I'm finishing my Senior Capstone on Science Fiction as mirror to the present and not a projection of the future. I just discovered Joss Whedon's Firefly - AMAZING. So glad you think it is cool too ;)

[Gretchen]

Now this is my kind of blog post!
I love characters that aren't afraid to be what they want to be, as long as they're being their true selves. (Did that make sense?)
I mean, as long as we're running with the Firefly analogies, let's look at Kaylee. She's incredibly good at keeping Serenity in good shape, but still can't resist the allure of puffy, pink dresses. That's just who she was and wasn't going to change. Characters naturally differ, so in some cases you're going to get the tough sword chicks and in some you're not.
(Marcus: Kudos, once more!)

[Liesolotte]

I am a pacifist and I never wear pants if I can help it.

But I can still kick butt.

[Angie]

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the truth that female characters can be distinctly FEMALE and still be incredibly strong...without having to become masculine in the least (which is the unfortunate turn that feminism seems to have taken), and thank you SO MUCH for writing such wonderfully feminine characters.

When I was little, my favorite games to play were stories that I made up and acted out with my sisters, and my favorite characters to play were girls who HAD to wear dresses and skirts (read: I actually wished that I had to myself and therefore had a huge pile of playclothes of the poofy dress variety), but would rather wield a sword, etc. etc. Anyway, the point is, there had been a significant lack of adventure stories (which was of course what I wanted) with strong female characters who weren't strong simply because they were tomboys (the usual model for a girl at the center of an adventure story.

Anyway...all this to say how grateful and happy I am that you've written characters like Ani and Dashti, etc. Brave and Strong and Feminine and Fun...and importantly, able to grow and change. They make beautiful, human characters that can inhabit a great story. I am excited that my daughters (someday) will have a more well-rounded collection of female characters to learn from. And I am excited for myself to finally have these great characters to read and enjoy :)

[Aella Siofra]

200 Cheers from the Siofra-sphere! I simply lurve how your characters are always so strong in who and what they are. They are incredible qualities not often found in fantasy novels today.

One more weapon wielding female personage in books is Alianne from The Trickster's Queen set. Although I suppose she generally used her wits when situations became sticky...

Hrmm... back to the drawing board I suppose...

*Aella*

[Hoho]

Girls chopping orc heads sound wonderful! And, I think you made a good choice, there are a lot of heroines that wield swords and wear pants, and every now and then you need a break from too many tomboys and have a visit with some girls.

[Tiffany Trent]

Hmmm...I'm going out on a limb here (you knew I would!) and disagree. (Not entirely, just sort of--in that obstinate way I have). Simply because the idea of weapons being purely masculine is only a Western convention. The other half of the world did not ever see it that way--weapons are just as, sometimes more than, feminine as they are masculine. I don't think a girl who wields a sword needs lip gloss to keep her feminine or to be a cheerleader to prove her femininity. I do think Joss ultimately *gets* women, but the girly touches feel like veneer and sometimes--almost--condescension to me. Then and again, I was also a tomboy who loved swords and hated (still does!) makeup and most girly things. However, I do love the path you ultimately chose for Ani--it's different and keeps her from the stereotypes you mention. What's even more fun is that I'm teaching it in my class this week! Woohoo!

[Q]

Yes, Marcus Aurelius, Harry was a girl. And she is basically awesome. I love that book.

I'm still laughing.

[shannon hale]

Ah-ha, but Tiffany, my dear, your argument only works in defense of those stories that are created within that culture. Traditionally, western culture creates intensely phallic weapons and keeps those weapons for men's use. So stories in Western culture that dress female characters as men and give them the weapons of the patriarchal world as a way to make them powerful are completely insulting. There absolutely should be characters who are natural tomboys, but to have the default powerful woman have to act, dress, and shoot like a stereotypical man is just plain unimaginative. Besides, the Buffy lip gloss example is the extreme--that was Joss's genius, to have an outlandishly girly girl of diminutive stature who always wore heels be the most powerful person on the planet. He turned the archetype of the powerful woman on its head and made it obsolete. Now everyone is forced to start from scratch. Huh? What have you to say now, Frau Feminism? Don't make me go all Women's Studies on you, girlfriend! i will pull out the French feminist theory, baby, you know I will!

But seriously, I shouldn't argue with a lady who is practiced in the fine art of separating my head from my shoulders in one smooth stroke. So, um, how ya doin'?

[Laura Z M]

Okay, so I have to ask: Is Amelia Peabody's parasol a phallic weapon or a re-purposed fashion accessory?

Whichever it is, I wish I had one.

[myrna]

There are all kinds of girls/women, and we don't have to agree to appreciate each other. I love all of Shannon's main characters; she wrote them the way they needed to be. But I'm a tomboy. I was usually the one girl in a group of guys. My mom said she felt like I was safer with my guy friends than my girlfriends, although I also noticed she got a lot more work out of the guys than the girls if she said I couldn't do anything until the fences were repaired or the hay was in. We had a ranch, an endless supply of work. My dad was gone a lot, but when he was home, he insisted we do everything his way.

When I read "The Lord of the Rings" in Junior High, I thought I understood Eowyn's fear of being left behind, of being caged.

I choose to stay home with my children,and I love it, but there is a part of me that understands Eowyn's fear even better now: "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire." That part of me writes and plays competitive sports.

And people say Tolkien didn't create "real" female characters.

I love the part when Merry recognizes her and becomes more than he is to help her because "she should not die, so fair, so desperate! At least, she should not die alone, unaided." Come on. How many of us dream of having that kind of effect?

So I'm a slightly romantic tomboy.

Moving on (and yes, I did notice Eowyn on your good list).

So, I'm just curious, if a sword is an "intensely phallic weapon," what is a pen?

[Olivia]

In regards to your query, Dr. Cheinsteen, I didn't read Twilight for a very long time either. But once I got started, I had quite a time putting it down! The story is very intriguing and fun, and the characters are wonderfully easy to make friends with! There are some romantic scenes, but they are overall quite touching; and though most of the characters are vampires, they don't act like the typically nasty, blood-thirsty villains of other tales at all. I hope this helps your decision! Happy reading!

[jen]

Shannon is my hero. The pen is mightier than the sword. Huzzah!

[Matt]

In the past it has seemed that fictional heroic women have not been allowed the diversity of heroic action that male characters have been allowed. Male heroic characters have been observed defeating their foes with any number of weapons - intelligence, charm, sheer will, not to mention the good old-fashioned broadsword. I think female heroic characters deserve the same diversity and complexity.

[Maya H.]

to the great shannon hale!

hahaha, well, you have accomplished it twice, and i warn you i barely screech while reading books. your two books i read, princess academy and goose girl made me screech out loud, (and made me hands sweat =P)
you have made the scenes so unpredictable, i got frustrated. i can usually predict what's going to happen in stories and you completely dazzled me. wow.
i did predict, however, that [SPOILER deleted]. how? well, i'm not going to tell you that, but i did NOT skip pages, that is murder.
you and another author (master chistopher paolini) are my favorite authors. congratulations! i look forward to reading your other stories, i just have to go no a mad book hunt in libraries. =]

signed always,
maya h.
keep your spark!

[Tiffany Trent]

My response is on my blog b/c it's loooong. This is so fun! We haven't done this in a long time! And I swear I'm not disagreeing just to be stubborn. I think there's room for Xenas, Buffies, Anis, and Aerins in our worlds. I think our best, highest job is to make characters that are whole, human, and speak to our readers. The ways they do so are obviously part of the fun. ;) I miss you, Queen Shannon!

-T

[Barratt Miller]

As a reader and a writer, I've always been drawn to stories in which the female protagonist views her femininity as a tool rather than a hindrance. Sometimes, taking up a sword is not the right course of action; there are other ways to get things done. The character needs to recognize her own unique strengths and use them to her advantage instead of trying to fight her true nature.

[Barratt Miller]

Clarification: I don't mean that I'm against girls in pants. I think that girls in pants are great. I just don't like it when the girls in pants device is used for the sake of using a girls in pants device. Sometimes, it doesn't work. I like my stories to be fundamentally "right", and I hate it when conventions get in the way.

[shannon hale]

Ha--good point, Myrna.

I hope the plethora of our fellow tomboys clamoring for characters to represent them as well doesn't mean that you think I in any way disagree. Of course the point of literature is to present all kinds of characters. Sexism isn't having weak, simpering women (or aggressive, angry women)--sexism is having ONLY one kind of woman, limiting to stereotypes. Go watch the women in those early cop dramas and I think you'll see where I'm coming from.

And this begs the question, is the only way to demonstrate strength to be able to kill someone?

Then my flimsy, un-researched argument will fold as soon as anyone starts to ask questions like, "Just what does it mean to be typically masculine? Or feminine? And aren't all weapons basically phallic? And why are we worried about all this anyway?"

What I'm ineptly trying to say is, I don't think women have to become men to be powerful. And I don't think teens have to become adults in order to be interesting and worthwhile. And I don't think they ever should have canceled Firefly.

[shannon hale]

Aah! Tiffany, I read your blog and I disagree with everything you paraphrased me as believing! Clearly I'm not expressing myself well if that's what you thought I was saying. Maybe I should take a course in written communication.

[myrna]

Ah Shannon, I think you're getting your point across, but you're not the only one with a soap box. There were a lot of comments that made it sound like there is something wrong with those of us who wear pants or associate pink with stomach cramps.

I agree with you. It isn't a character's (like Eowyn) ability to kill someone that gives them strength. It's whatever drives them: loyalty, courage, ambition, preservation of self and others, even their own weaknesses. There are people who would disagree though. My dad was a Major in the Air Force National Guard, and his idea of bonding with his teenage daughter was teaching me how to kill bad guys with my bare hands. But no worries--he's not going to be reading this.

And I think I'll pass on the early cop dramas.

[Christen]

I'm actually really glad you wrote Ani that way, and when I come to think of it, Enna too. Heroines in books often foreswear their femininity in order to be taken seriously, but honestly, if the characters are powerful enough, they wouldn't have to. And really, girls who let themselves BE girls are so much more relatable, because even if they're running around hacking up the baddies by day, at their cores, they still have that feminine touch, so why waste it? I don't like when authors muddle the line between the sexes for mass appeal, and you didn't, Shannon. :) Ani can use her perceptive powers and wind-speak to take down the traitors, but still finds time to be a girl.

Eowyn with a broadsword will NEVER get old. xD

[moments-of-euphoria]

Miss Shannon, I love your books! "The Goose Girl" and "Princess Academy" are amazing. I also love "River Secrets," especially its different point-of-view. But my favorite is "Enna Burning." Enna's character is maybe the most real and unpredictable I have ever read about.

Personally, I'm getting really irritated at a lot of books (not their authors or characters -- it's too hard for me to get angry at those because they are in some sense animate, and books always forgive you for being angry at them) with female leads, because they are either about a girl who isn't considered strong and finds strength that was somehow inside her all along, or about a girl who everyone knew to be strong protecting/proving her strength in the end, and they all live happily ever after.

So if anyone would care to recommend any books, by all means...

And Twilight, New Moon, and Eclipse are exceptions. I find that there is no character development or evolution, especially on the part of the lead. They're an asphyxiating read the first time, I suppose, but they can hardly be called classic because after that, it's hard to maintain interest. (Many have and will disagree with me on this point.)

What I'd really like to see in a book is where the female lead helps someone else find something he/she needs.

[Josh]

Ahh so nice to hear an echo of my own thoughts vis-a-vis heroines with swords. Sometimes it really works, I think Garth Nix's Sabriel and Lirael in particular work well out of this aspect because the fact that they're women isn't ever an issue in regards to whether they're up for the fight, and though there are battles to fight more important to their characters are their developments as they work to ends of their seperate stories. Sometimes though, giving the girl the sword just makes her seem lost, as if she's drowning in overlarge shoes. Better that she's strong inside first, I think.

[Angela]

Shannon and Dr. Cheinsteen,

I did not like the Twilight books at all! They have no development of character, only pretty wrapping paper around an empty box. The story written in Bella's words asks her readers to identify with her, but this insults my intelligence--as Bella is so shallow and (dare I say it?) stupid. The plot develops Bella's world but not the shallow characters. No character experiences true emotional growth or thinks and acts the way that real people do. My opinion may seem biased toward the smart and literary values in books, not the page-turner value, but I am a graduate-level English major, so what can you say? Page-turner value is good but not everything, just as surface is not content.

On the other hand, (I have only read Goose Girl, but I can't wait to read more of Shannon's books!) Goose Girl has intelligence, literary-ness, and AND the page-turner-ness! It's wonderful! And not only is Ani a well-rounded character who becomes fearless by the end, she is one who we (and I, especially) can all identify with. Hooray for excellent contemporary YA literature, which is often much more literary than adult books out there!

Thank you Shannon! I can't wait to read more of your books!

[Christen]

Sorry, a totally new thought occured to me. I think it might be just because I like hearing myself talk. ;)

When the authors let their characters actually step into their gender roles they're more understandable, too. Sometimes when I'm reading a book, I don't feel for the heroines because I can't see where they're coming from. Eventually, even the classic GIP (girl in pants) has to slip back into her dress, but there are times when the author just leaves those parts out, which is like cheating the reader out of a real experience.

I, for one, cannot understand a girl who doesn't cry at loss, pain, or heartbreak. I cannot understand a girl who doesn't have original thought and a mind of her own. And I especially cannot understand a girl who displays all the emotional characteristics of a MAN. Books are being MASCULINIZED (is that a word?). It's true.

It's nice that girls want to prove they can do anything that guys can do, that they want to break down walls of prejudice that draw lines of what is and is not femininely (is THAT a word?)appropriate. Eowyn with her broadsword, Gemma Doyle with her magic, and Brin Ohmsford with her wishsong. That stuff is all amazing, remarkable, original, etcetera, etcetera. I love reading about these kind of women; clever, witty, pretty, and strong.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: when it comes down to it, the sexes are not interchangeable (that's why there's two ;)), which of course, raises the question of why some authors pretend they are.

(... And Shannon doesn't. GOD, so awesome...)

[Maggie McGovern]

I think that your female characters are delightful. Enna, and Ani, are truly remarkable, almsot the equal of Eowyn and Arwen, and from a person whos first and most meaningful identity is that of a Tolkien fan, that is high praise indeed.I absolutely love your books, and admit that acording to most of my family and friends, indulge in them more than my schedule (especially howework wise) allows!! I am 1 of 7 children, 5 of whom are girls, and all five of us love it. I suppose we all see ourselves as Ani, waiting to be tested and to find out what we can accomplish. What I like most about your books is how realistic your worlds seem to me. Many of the modern day fairytales/fantasies are placed in worlds that seem so unreal, with flawed and incomplete charcters and therefore I find I cannot truly immerse myself as I find myself doing in your books. I can imagine myself living in Bayern just as easily as I can imagine living in Rivendell, or Loth Lorien where I admit i have always dreamed of dwelling. My favorite part of The Goose Girl is when Ani is living with the workers, because of the comraderie, and atmosphere that seems so filling and wholesome. At times the teasing and friendships remind me of my own life with my family. it seems so wonderful that such a world of magic and beauty can exist, even if it is only on the soft pages of a book!
p.s. I love "The Blue Sword"

[thesis writing]

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