A lively discussion from the last post! I have a couple of thoughts. First, I just want you to know that if that comment about young adults books and writers had appeared just about anywhere else but the New York Times, I wouldn't have commented on it. I really don't like to dig up and muck around the negative. But because it appeared in what is considered one the best newspapers and the most important book review in the country, I thought (like oodles of other bloggers) that some counter voices needed to be heard. Besides, it was just too plain silly. For me it even trumps the arrogant silliness of that Wall Street Journal article from 2006. Yes, by all means, let's make sure our children NEVER fall into a comfort zone with reading! We must make sure that even their summer reading is at least 100 years old! Is it fun? Do they enjoy it? Then it must be BAD! (you'll forgive me a few sarcastic sentences, yes?)
Second, I wanted to address all you lovely teen commenters who were irked that adults don't think you can think for yourselves. I completely respect you for being informed about current events and appreciating great music and anything that an adult might. But I want you to know that if you only ever read Tiger Beat magazine and gossip about hot guys, you're still valuable people and worthy of respect. I don't think a teenager must understand typically adult matters and do typically adult things to be respectable. It's complete arrogance from adults that would insist otherwise. You are in a different stage of life than an eighty-eight-year-old NYT reviewer (I'm guessing on the age), you have different perspectives, different interests, different thoughts. And you are important. You are vital. There are as many different kinds of teenagers as there are adults, and you have as much right to your thoughts and experiences. Adults can learn from you, and you can learn from adults, and that makes the whole world more interesting. It always bothered me when in action movies or books, the writers would turn women into men in order to make them powerful--i.e. give them a sword, put them in pants, make them more aggressive and other typically male traits. Sure, one woman like that makes an interesting character, but all of them? Can't a woman be feminine and still be powerful? In the same way, I'm bugged that a teenager would be expected to act and think like an adult in order to be considered powerful, or interesting, or valuable.
K, stepping off the soap box now and slowly backing away.
I turned in a draft of Bayern 4 to my editor last week! Man, that was a bugger. It's still only a second draft. And it's bad. Very bad. But there's progress at least! So in the meantime, I'm back to working on my second adult book, the actor and the housewife. Unfortunately, it is going to be longer than austenland. In fact, it's looking like it will be as long as the goose girl, which so far is my longest book. I think books shouldn't be one word longer than they need to be (a judgement, I realize, that is horrifically subjective in execution). I like nice, tight stories. And as my books tend to get shorter and shorter, I'm clearly getting less and less patient with rambling. But this book takes place over a ten year span, and it really needed lots more stuff. And there's a ton of dialog, which will make it in page length seem even longer than it is. I'm looking forward to getting back to it. Stephenie Meyer read it a few weeks ago for me and gave me some great feedback that I'm anxious to apply. It was incredibly kind of her. Now Caralyn Buehner is reading it too. That will make three people that have read it before Dean. Usually he's the first. But he's a little gun shy with that genre, I think. Cutie. I really, really like him. (Don't tell, K?)
But we LIKE it when you're on the soap box! You always have such interesting things to say.
Posted by: Q | February 18, 2008 at 11:24 AM
The soap box is good.
Shannon I just got back from the Life the Universe and Everything conference and let me just say that EVERYONE talked about you. EVERYONE. Including Gail Carson Levine and Orson Scott Card. You are so loved! I beamed for you everytime. And at all the books signings they had the books of the authors who were there on display and yours. I laughed. They gave you a tribute even though you weren't signing. Ha!
Posted by: Enna Isilee | February 18, 2008 at 11:50 AM
I can't believe that they criticized Tangerine! It's not a fab book, but I didn't think it was... bad.
Yay for Bayern #4! And The Actor and the Housewife! I had to reread that sentence a few times. Unfortunately? I love books nice and long. Well, not too long, like Harry Potter, but Goose Girl long.
Yes, Teens ARE people. I fight this every day, and I'm getting rather peeved.
I don't enjoy books that give a girl a sword to make her strong. I just don't relate to them, and I don't think that they are realistic.
Posted by: Felicity | February 18, 2008 at 11:58 AM
Oh, most excellent post, Shannon. Please do hold on to that soapbox.
Posted by: cuileann | February 18, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Teenagers are the future and if we can't trust the future now, then we have a serious problem.
That's very exciting about Bayern # 4! I've finshed the series and now I want MORE MORE MORE.
Thank you, Shannon!
Posted by: Sophie | February 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Good for you for turning in a new Bayern #4 draft! *cheers* *high five*
Posted by: Miss Erin | February 18, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Make your books as long as you like! Big books don't scare me, they reel me in. And I will read all your books, no matter what you write. Because you're that darn amazing. (And I read all genres, I just like a good story.)
And you got to have your stuff read by Stephenie Meyer??? Oh man, so cool! I love how all my fave authors are tied together. It's so fawesome!
I like swords. And pants. But I'm kind of a weenie. (Shh!)
Posted by: Katie-wa | February 18, 2008 at 12:42 PM
Nooo... don't step off your soap box!! It's more fun up there.
Haha. Either way. I am dancing with joy at the promise of such splendid advocates as yourself for YAs everywhere. I am also jigging some at the idea of Bayern 4. This is so very very exciting!!
Cheerz,
Aella
Posted by: Aella Siofra | February 18, 2008 at 01:30 PM
Since you're talking about length, out of curiosity, what kind of word count have your books had, anyway? I've been writing single title women's fiction/romance, but am now working on a young adult novel. This one is looking to be about 60,000-65,000 words, which is shorter than many adult novels, but seems longer than many young adult ones (according to my very non-scientific method of counting the words on a page in the book and then multiplying them by the number of pages).
Posted by: Caryn | February 18, 2008 at 01:30 PM
One of my friends is a middle school librarian, and she said most books are classified by genre depending on the age of the main character rather than the actual content in them...
I find that many YA books do, in fact, have a young heroine, but they may be going through an experience that I could better relate to at 8 -- or at 28!
Although I don't mind books that are written specifically for one age group, by far my favorites are those that are written to tell a story. And everyone of any age can enjoy a well-written good story!
Posted by: Laura | February 18, 2008 at 01:42 PM
"the actor and the housewife. Unfortunately, it is going to be longer than austenland."
You're so funny!
That's really awesome that Stephenie Meyer read your book. And congrats on the second draft of Bayern 4. That one is being challenging, me thinks.
Posted by: Calliope1of9 | February 18, 2008 at 02:13 PM
CONGRATULATIONS!!! For the 2nd draft of Bayern 4, for 'the actor and the housewife' and, of, the soap box!! Don't you dare start getting shy on us, Shannon. C;
Posted by: Asha | February 18, 2008 at 02:26 PM
Well spoken, Shannon! I can't wait for Forest Born. *sigh*
Posted by: maribeth_kayla | February 18, 2008 at 03:28 PM
Wow. Great to hear about the books your working on. And that's so great you get awesome people to read your stuff.
Congrats turning in a draft.
Posted by: hwalk | February 18, 2008 at 05:14 PM
ok, so i'm a bad bookseller. i've been recommending "Austenland" to people without having read it. but i am a good bookseller because it is a good book! i know, i've now read it. i just had to mention how much i loved it. i was pretty sure i would LIKE it, seeing as i am a mr. darcy loving fool. but i didn't know i'd love it, and i did. so there. yay for 'Austenland'! and therefore yay and much looking forward to 'actor and the housewife'!
Posted by: jenn | February 18, 2008 at 05:56 PM
The soap box is good, your rants are good, and very empowering. It's nice to know that not everyone assumes that NYT is the authority on everything. I hate it when I get laughed at at school for reading books like The Goose Girl ("Fantasy again? Don't you read anything else?") to which I'd love to respond, "And what have YOU read in the last... two months? Oh, nothing? Hmm, too bad." I mean, of course the classics are great (Pride and Prejudice is my one lasting comfort), but you can't expect a child or teenager to just start off on a book like that and enjoy it. Reading is like riding a bicycle; you have to work at it, particularly if you want to understand it. Most kids aren't born with a love of reading, so you have to build it up. And if reading "cereal-box" books is going to do it, then so be it. Now I'm ranting. Sorry. :)
Did I tell you how excited I am about Bayern 4? VERY. Even if you say the draft is bad (I don't believe you), you're right, progress is always good!
Yeah, pretty much any book you write, I'm going to read. :D
Posted by: Christen | February 18, 2008 at 06:19 PM
Thanks so much for posting things like these on your blog. I wouldn't be able to see peoples opinions or even know about these issues had you not posted them on your blog!!
Also, I'm extremely excited for Bayern #4!! Can't wait til it get's close to print!
Posted by: MAYday | February 18, 2008 at 06:28 PM
As others have said, I love your rants, Shannon. They always make perfect sense. :D
Teens have a different level and sort of experience than adults; we're just as smart and everything, but not in the same way. Just like there are the different kinds of smart, I think there's also age smarts. I mean, adults are supposed to be wiser, but sometimes they're not the ones with the right way to make you feel better. Sometimes it's actually someone younger than you. We just all comprehend different ways, and sometimes the innocence of children can give birth to the best sort of wisdom.
Yay for Bayern 4! I so can't wait for it.
Posted by: Anidori-Isilee | February 18, 2008 at 08:04 PM
No! I like the soapbox!
...And here I am stepping in like I know exactly what's going on. And I'm drastically behind in my reading, of course. I haven't read River Secrets or Book of a Thousand Days. They were both checked out of the library the last time I went. Oh, but when I asked about 1000 Days, the librarian very literally put her hand on her heart and gasped something unintelligible about how amazing it was.
I need to get back to the library!
And now it is very late, and I will probably get into a great deal of trouble if anyone discovers that I'm still awake.
I sound kind of stiff, don't I? Ah well...
Posted by: Charlotte | February 19, 2008 at 12:15 AM
And here I go with another comment, two seconds later! As I didn't actually say anything at all in my last, maybe I should actually comment about the post instead of rambling about nothing...like I'm doing right now...
I completely agree: teens shouldn't have to act like adults to be respected. I've always been complimented for being "mature", and in some ways that's not really a very good thing. It's kind of limiting--like there's something expected of you now. It can be painful to have a grandparent tell you that they won't even ask about your grades because they know they're amazing...and you can't stop thinking about that math test you just failed. I'm twelve, but consider myself a teen just because...well...I do...and now I've lost my train of thought. I will spare you all any more rambling and go to sleep.
I'm not going to make any more revisions. I'll always sound like an idiot in posts. ;) I ALMOST resisted the urge to make a smiley face. But I didn't. I would've, but then I remembered the whole point of what I've been saying. Teehee.
Posted by: Charlotte | February 19, 2008 at 12:29 AM
**patiently* waits for any and every upcoming book by Shannon Hale* ;)
I still say "bah!" to that eighty-eight-year-old NYT reviewer. Hmph.
;)
Posted by: Bohae | February 19, 2008 at 01:52 AM
Oooh, I am excited for both of those books. And I love what you have to say about teens.
Posted by: jen | February 19, 2008 at 08:32 AM
Yippee for Rin! You must be SO excited, Miss Shannon! Judging by Razo's description of his little sister in River Secrets, I just know Rin is going to be an absolute joy to have around! :) And thank you for not giving any secrets about the story away to me when I met you! The suspense is pure bliss!
Posted by: Olivia | February 19, 2008 at 08:35 AM
Well, as a young adult in college surrounded by academic nutcases who are like literature-nazis when it comes to only reading gargantuan tomes, I must say Shannon, your books are a delightful, insightful journey away from the somewhat droll norm. There is nothing more enjoyable than getting lost in a sweet, meaningful, romantic, funny story. That's why I love young adult fiction so much, it's such an outlet for the imagination. So, all those hoity-toity reviewers can just go be emo in a corner, because I love your books, and all they offer.
Posted by: Kellina | February 19, 2008 at 08:45 AM
Ah, Shannon. I wish I knew you personally. YA have so much to bring into the world. You make me so excited! For life, experiences, and salsa! I love books. Of ALL kinds. Except science fiction. Please, don't make me read it. Or textbooks. What am I saying? Pretty much I think you rock. Like the whipped cream and sprinkles on a banana split. And I think it is totally wicked you are writing more books! I am reading Austenland again, and can I say Colin Firth can do it to ya?
Posted by: Dr. Sallie N. Cheinsteen | February 19, 2008 at 09:14 AM
I kind of like giving some of my girl characters a sword, but hey I'm a fencer!
So excited about bayern 4! And the actor and the housewife!
And yes, i like talking about hot guys. And yes I'm considering putting pink in my hair tommorow when i dye it blonde. Oh yes. I'm a teenager.
Posted by: Chelsea | February 19, 2008 at 09:40 AM
Hooray for all the above! Hooray for teens! Hooray for reading in general!
(P.S.-Dearest LRs, Pardon my absence. Existential circumstances are currently preventing me from visiting the site, but I will be back as soon as possible! I miss you all ever so much, and I hope I haven't missed any permanent good-byes.)
Posted by: Burning | February 19, 2008 at 01:23 PM
That women thing...it's pretty true. I am frustrated when people think thrusting swords into girls' hands makes them tough. Or good characters. I happen to think it takes more strength to go through life happily than to wave about a sword and make war noises. (Though sword-waving and war noises are terrific fun!)
Posted by: Burning | February 19, 2008 at 07:28 PM
Shannon--
I have been a fan of yours for ever so long...
I have been a fan of blogging for almost 6 months...
And now the worlds collide! I must say I am very excited to find your blog, find two more books in the making, and find your soapbox.
Just last week (Valentine's Day to be exact) I did a display on fairy tales in my high school classroom and I highlighted and recommended your books. Thanks for being a fantastic writer.
Hoorah!
Posted by: Carly | February 19, 2008 at 07:42 PM
Congratulations on Bayern #4! I wouldn't much mind if it were as bad as you say it is. I'd still read it. And congrats on "the actor and the housewife," too.
You're right. Teens don't have to act like adults all the time and be mature all the time. I think we can still act like spoiled brats on special occasions. Like birthdays and when you're sick and when you get a B on the Algebra exam you thought you'd fail and... maybe I'd better stop. The list is nearly endless. I also want red streaks in my hair. If only mom would let me...
I'm all for girls being strong without the need of pants, a sword, and having to do something a man would normally be thought to be doing. But... I LOVE IT when girls go against the rules and use swords and do the man's job when theirs is to sit and around and embroider (which I enjoy)!!! I like embroidering and sewing and cooking and sitting around drawing and reading and singing. But then again, I also like to throw stuff when I'm REALLY mad, get my way, and hate to be helped ALL the time by boys. I'm a strange mix of sugar and spice. And I have a lot of spice...
Posted by: Ellenboro | February 19, 2008 at 08:46 PM
Oh, and don't worry. We won't tell anybody that you like your husband. ;)
Posted by: Charlotte | February 19, 2008 at 09:37 PM
Whoo-hoo for Bayern number four! Words cannot properly express my excitement!
Oh, and your opinions are always welcome with me, Shannon. :o)
Posted by: Cara | February 19, 2008 at 09:55 PM
I agree with 98.762% of your post.
HOWEVER: Girl + sword ≠ unfeminine
Girl + sword = teh win
End transmission.
Posted by: Marcus Aurelius | February 20, 2008 at 08:30 AM
Marcus, nothing is cooler than Buffy swinging an ax. Nothing. But she is still feminine. I'm thinking Terminator 2, Aliens, old cop shows, early fantasy, those crippled attempts to interject feminism into typically male genres. They did it badly.
Joss Whedon does nothing badly.
Posted by: shannon hale | February 20, 2008 at 09:12 AM
You're right, of course.
Only, when I think of whomever it is that has to dree the weird unfortunate enough of becoming Mrs. Marcus Aurelius, I always imagine her with a claymore. Or a falchion.
A katana would be favorite.
Goll darnit, I'd even take a frakking katzbalger.
I guess I just didn't want to enter a relationship like that questioning my sexuality.
Annnnd, I just wrote "sexuality" in a blog populated by minors.
I'm *so* going to heck.
Posted by: Marcus Aurelius | February 20, 2008 at 09:31 AM
P.S. Way to invoke Buffy, BTW. A million bonus points for you, young lady.
Posted by: Marcus Aurelius | February 20, 2008 at 09:33 AM
Oh-oh. You know what this means, right? I will have read the first 3 Bayern books again before I read #4.
Good thing I own them all.
[oh, and a fun sidenote - I loaned them to a friend when she went to Thailand last summer...kinda cool to think they traveled the world]
Anyways, I love your thoughts on teens and YA writing. YA books are a huge passion of mine...so much so that I am hoping to trade in my elementary school gig and work in a middle or high school library.
Sorry to ramble! :) Good luck with the revisions!
Posted by: Tiff | February 20, 2008 at 11:37 AM
*cracking up* (Okay, not really, because my rather expressive laughter--in other words, loud--still makes me burst into coughing fits. Did I mention I hate colds? But I'm chuckling quietly to myself.)
Anyhoo. You know, I've never really noticed the overlying use of girls with swords in books. Or maybe I just haven't cared. Sure, it's silly for people to assume that the only way a girl can be "powerful" is by having her take on something automatically set aside for men--such as swordfighting. But maybe it's also making the statement that girls CAN handle more than needlepoint and watercolors.
Posted by: Kelsey | February 20, 2008 at 11:53 AM
I would have posted a very long and opinionated comment on the last post, but my computer shut off while I was in the middle of writing it. Now it seems you will be in for a double dosage of opinionated longness...now where to begin?
I think the thing that bothers me the most in the whole controversy is the sense that children must be classified. Not to mention teenagers. A good story is a good story, and some stories require adult content to drive the plot, while others do not. The only condemnable thing is when authors add in 'adult content' purely for shock value- which no good author does. (yes, Shannon has covered this on her blog before) Furthermore, teenagers are not all the same, any more than adults are all the same. I personally am nothing like any of the things I read about myself (or my age group, that is.) I never have been. Age really has very little to do with personality, in my opinion. It just depends on what you've been exposed to, and how you respond to it. If you are exposed and respond to situations that everyone expects you to be in in the way everyone expects you to act, then, Ok, maybe you'll be like the typical age cliches. But humans just aren't that predictable. And since real life is often lighthearted, I don't see any problem with lighthearted books. It takes a certain skill to imitate human nature in a way that is at all believable, and some modern authors do that very well. That type of story isn't my fsvorite, but I respect it nonetheless. I enjoy reading classics, but I have real problems with the thought that any 'good' book has to be depressing and dark. Humor also takes skill, and I am most impressed with a writer who manages to handle the deep and poignant alongside humor and humanness. (hmm, Let's see...can any one think of any names? I think I know of an author, whose name starts with a 'sh',who has done it wonderfully in several books, but I just can't seem to recall...)I also think that sometimes books are almost ruined by their reputations. I mean, who wants to read the Great Gatsby? It's supposed to be big, nigh unconquerable, right? *shudders*. That's what I used to think. Until I actually read it. And Harry Potter is a lot more than a big, fast-selling franchise. It has some wonderful moments and wonderful characters and amazing metaphors. The list goes on. YA authors are amazing. Anyone can enjoy their books, because they are stories, not grand satires or pretentious novels or dirty romances. Stories. And children's books are their own kind of art. I admit that there are some bad ones out there. But I'm sure that there are also some bad adult books. I really fail to see the difference.
I shall be back after a short interval and a deep breath...
Posted by: Liesolotte | February 20, 2008 at 12:01 PM
hi, me again.
Now, onto the whole 'girls with swords' thing.
I completely agree with Shannon. There are too many characters who try to defy their classification (girl) by turning to so-called forms of empowerment (sword). But then again, I love a lot of characters like that, notably Princess Cimorene of the Enchanted Forest Chronicles. But an overabundance of anything kind of ruins what was good about it in the first place. As much as I love warrior princesses and daggers, I also adore damsels in distress and embroidery, just so long as they're real or likable in some way. And strangely, I find them refreshing. In trying to clobber the norm, warrior princesses have become the norm themselves. Strange...Yet, that's one of the sad things about literature, and part of the reason we fear the classics. They were all cool and daring at the time they were written, you know. Well, a lot of them anyway. And Lord of the Rings has gone from the father of all fantasy to the grandmaster of cliches, just because of all the children it has spawned. Sad, but true.
Posted by: Liesolotte | February 20, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Also, I absolutely can't wait for Bayern 4. Bayern is definitely among my favorite fantasy series, which places it up there with Narnia and Enchanted Forest and Inheritance. Oh, and Harry Potter. heehee. But my favorite fantasy books ever are probably The Once and Future King, Ella Enchanted, The Ordinary Princess and the Goose Girl. In case anyone wanted to know. I've read Alanna and the Golden Compass, but I just couldn't get into them. And I'm just started getting into Stephenie Meyer. But you'll always be up there, Shannon.
Posted by: Liesolotte | February 20, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Oh and I sincerely apologize for the triple (um, quadruple, that is.) posts. But considering the size and diverse nature of my comments, I thought they might be easier to read if I split them up. I know I usually skim over really long comments. Ok, I'm stopping now. I promise. Really. Right now. This minute. As soon as I- BE QUIET ALREADY!
Posted by: Liesolotte | February 20, 2008 at 12:33 PM
In response to Caryn's comment, about word-length, most in the writing business don't consider books shorter than 60,000 words a novel---the usual minimum is 80,000 words, actually. So that may help in regards to comparing your book with others, though I don't know how many words Shannon's books are.
(Stephenie Meyer's "Twilight" is 350,000+ words long.)
But in regard to the post, GO TEENS!
Posted by: Jillian | February 20, 2008 at 03:13 PM
You should live on the soapbox.
Posted by: Reese | February 20, 2008 at 06:30 PM
re: word count
Actually, I believe Twilight was just under 120,000. My longest, Goose Girls, was 91,000. My shortest, Austenland, was 53,000. Everything else falls in between.
Posted by: shannon hale | February 20, 2008 at 08:19 PM
Marcus Aurelius strikes YET AGAIN!
Oh, wow, Liesolotte. Those were some LONG posts. And I really like your name. It's gorgeous.
Posted by: Q | February 20, 2008 at 09:06 PM
I think I am going to jump on the bandwagon Shannon on telling how amazingly awesome I think you are. Besides the above mentioned, I love the passion and sincerity you have for everything you do. You are my hero. I love your stories, I love your characters, and I love your feelings that girl characters do not necessarily need to have a sword and pants to be strong. That gives me so much more courage to keep writing the characters I have in my story.
There, stepping off my own little soap box, but by no means backing away slowly. I'm very proud of you Shannon and I am so glad I know you. *waves from my little corner*
Oh, and what is your new adult book about? (Or are you not allowed to say yet?) :)
Posted by: Heather | February 21, 2008 at 04:34 AM
Like I said, I was saving it up. I wonder if anyone actually read all of them from beginning to end? Ah, well, at least it's out of my system.
And thank you for your appreciation of my name, by the way. It's an alias, so I like it too! ; )
Posted by: Liesolotte | February 21, 2008 at 08:17 AM
I love reading all these different opinions! I have to say that sometimes I kinda dig the sword thing, but certainly not for all female characters. It depends, I guess.
Also, Joss Whedon is so my homeboy.
Posted by: Gretchen | February 21, 2008 at 11:40 AM
Well, Shannon, if you decide to change the title of your book to "The Snowman and the Lamia," I'll know who to blame.
Marcus, I think my husband may have preferred a broadsword, but he settled for a spear. I gave up the javelin shortly after I met him, though. Nevertheless, he still appears confident in his masculinity, and, amazingly, he still seems to dig me. The moral of the story: The weapon doesn't make the woman.
I've noticed that another "Laura" has begun posting comments here. I realize that I don't have exclusive claim to the name (even though I've been around since the pre-Newbery days). Since I'm sure she'd hate for anyone to confuse us (she seems a nice, respectable individual), I'll add a couple of random letters to my "posted by" name.
Posted by: Laura Z M | February 21, 2008 at 09:41 PM